Song Matchmakers Network: Interviews

Andrea von Foerster has done music supervision for film, television and online projects for the last twelve years.  Credits include music documentaries such as Freestyle: The Art Of Rhyme, Mayor Of The Sunset Strip and The White Stripes Under Great White Northern Lights as well as independent films such as (500) Days Of Summer, It’s Kind of A Funny Story and most recently From Prada To Nada.  Television work includes The O.C., Grey’s Anatomy and Dollhouse and numerous MTV shows such as Run’s House and Life of Ryan. She is currently working on the studio features Journey 2: The Mysterious Island (New Line Cinema) and Chronicle (20th Century Fox), the independent features Brothers & Sisters and Highland Park and the TV shows Modern Family (ABC) and Apt. 23 (ABC).

1. 1.  What is Firestarter Music, and what role do you play in it? 

Firestarter is an independent music supervision company where I do placements for my projects and clearances. I used to work for numerous music supervision companies, but I went on my own 5 years ago. I work in Film/TV and online projects; I am now a company of one, doing everything on my own.

1. 2. What are the similarities of a music supervisor’s job in movie and TV production, and how do they differ?

The similarities...well...the structure is always the same; you always have to get with your team of people, your producers, the director, you know, whoever sort of assigns the creative music on a project, and sit with them to decide what the sound of a project is going to be like and what sort of genres people want to use. Then you find that and pitch the music to all the key people.  Then you find exactly the song you do or don’t like and then try and clear those within your budget, and if you can’t clear them within your budget, you have to find replacements.

It’s my job to find what fits the project the best and gets across what the story is trying to say.   But for TV, it is a much faster pace.  So, typically, you have about two weeks to go ahead and find the music, clear the music and deliver the music. Sometimes it can air as quickly as 3 weeks or a month later. Sometimes you’re ahead of time in case you need a replacement for a show. So if the show starts in January, and its September, then obviously you’ll be ahead of time. But for film you have a lot more time. Usually, depending on when you get hired, it could be a year, two years, depending on the film, so you can go through a lot more music and ideas because you have more time to play. So timing is really the only difference.

1. 3.      What challenges seem to crop up time and time again?

That is a great question. You know, budget is always an issue. Budgets have gone down steadily for a long time. So trying to still get the music that fits your project and makes everyone happy, the director, producers, the writers, the editors, the studio and the network, and still fit within your budget is definitely one of the pressing issues for a supervisor. Timing... sometimes you get hired really late so you do not have a lot of time to do something that you should have had maybe more time to do in an ideal world.

Also, sometimes you can find out later in the game that they do not want a specific song on a certain scene. That can always be interesting. Or, if an artist wants to deny use, which I have nothing against, I am fully supportive of people wanting to place their creative property in something that better fits their ideal. But if you do not know that they are going to deny you, it leaves very little time to do what I need to do. I do not think any supervisor has a problem with being denied as long as you get denied quickly. If it takes like a month and a half and everyone is saying, this song, this song, and you don’t get it, that can be a bit painful because a lot of people don’t even want to hear the plan b until they have that denial. So you may have replacements, but they don’t want to hear them until they know for sure their first choice is not available.

1. 4.      Who participates in the decisions on which scenes should have music in them, and what part does a music supervisor play in that decision?

Generally, on a film or TV, you’ll view a music spot, so it will be the editor, the music supervisor, the director, and producers. You’ll sit there and go through and say, okay, this scene is working without music; this scene isn’t, you know; like we need something here, we need something there. So that all typically happens on anything, and I, as a supervisor, should add my opinion as to what the music should be; the people either agree or disagree, and we go from there. I pitch different music for those scenes. The best thing is to have all these people in a room together, but sometimes it is hard to get all these people in the same room. So that way it’s not bouncing over e-mails and waiting for people to make a decision; you can all sort of fit in a room and say yes, here, here, here. 

1. 5.      How is the decision made on what genre, vibe, instrumental or vocal is needed in a scene?

Well, it depends on the project. I mean if you have something that is electrically vibed, you’ll want some kind of techno type music. Or with something like the OC, which reached out to a more 13 to 30 demographic and pop culture, you wanted some more modern type music. You know what is popular right now. So you want it to stay contemporary and stay cool and very pop culture relevant. There are other shows that are far less music centric, I worked on things like Modern Family, and they only have music that is totally in the storyline moments. So I cleared “Free Your Mind” by En Vogue for a flash mob scene. They knew they wanted to do a dance; they wanted to do something that was very popular and very well known, so with the scene being funny, if you put something in there that wasn’t well known, it could potentially take away from the comedy. So I cleared that. It is sort of like one of those things where people come in, like writers or directors, and they’ll come in with a picture in their mind about what they want already. Sometimes it is a suggestion from the supervisor; sometimes you get your ideas together. But the fun is in the pitching and finding what makes everybody happy. 

1. 6. What’s the best way for writers to get educated on how to go about writing and submitting music for TV and movies?

The best thing is actually just make your own music. Because, you know, if you try to tailor something to film or TV, as a general idea, I don’t think it works as well. If you want your music to be placed in TV or films, you should watch them. A lot of people don’t, and I’m like, well, then your saying you don’t really care about this industry; you are only caring about yourself. So if you want your music to add to the creative product of something, you should know about it. So if you want Grey’s Anatomy, then watch Grey’s Anatomy and know what kind of music they use. If you’re a singer/songwriter, or if your pop, write something that fits that show, but I do not recommend doing something outside of your own genre. It sounds disingenuous, so write what you know, and if it fits that show, then fantastic; submit it.

If you do something more Hip Hop or something more top 40ish, then Entourage is a good suggestion for you. But there are opportunities in TV and film where we need something original. I’m actually working on a film now where we are looking for an original song because we want a recognizable artist, but we want something original because the film is not coming out until next year. So we have to think ahead of time, because we don’t want the song to be over used by the time the film comes out. So, if we like a song that is already existing, it could get placed elsewhere; it could get played in a commercial or something before the film release, so we want something still original a year from now. So we go out to writers we know; having an original song is great, but there wouldn’t be a way the writers would know about that. Film and TV placement isn’t really the same as the songwriter world. There is no pitch list, no central place for you to find out about something. So you sort of have to put out what you do best, and what you do best may fit a project, and then it all works out.

1. 7.      How do you like to work with writers, artists, bands, and publishers, and how do you like to receive submissions?

I actually love dealing with anybody who knows what they’re talking about. That is a broad statement, but it’s true. I like dealing with labels and publishers, because, obviously, I know that somebody is accountable, and they already understand the game if they are major or a major indie group. I don’t mind dealing with artists directly if they know what their talking about. Because, obviously, just because they wrote the song does not mean they know anything else. A lot of times I’ve said, “Oh who’s your PRO?,” and they don’t know what I’m talking about. I’m like, are you registered with ASCAP, BMI, SOCAN, SESAC anywhere in the world, and they don’t know what I’m talking about, I’m like, OK…this isn’t probably going to go very well, and if your not registered with a PRO, you don’t get any royalties. So that does not make much sense because that is where most of your money is going to come from.

So I need to know that people know what their talking about. I need to know if it is a co-write, because you may be independent, but say you wrote with a Warner Chapel co writer, I need to know that because there is a price bracket, and that might throw you out of a spot I was hoping to pitch you for.

I also like third party sync agents. Those are great too, because they usually know their stuff. But, really, as long as you know what you’re talking about, I’m fine dealing with anybody. Also, sometimes, like in the hip hop world, a song will have a sample, and they forget, and I’m like, well, who do I go to? So I need to know if there are samples or if it is a cover. As long as people are honest with me upfront, so I have no surprises as to what I am dealing with, it’s okay. I also like to receive my submissions digitally; I don’t want to have to stream it  I just want to download it quick and easy. It may take me some time to get to the song and listen to it, but I always do listen to everything. For me, anything that does not expire, like on box.net, is amazing. If you send from YouSendIt, it may expire, and I’ll have to -mail you again, looking like a jerk for not downloading it sooner. So anything that doesn’t expire, that can live in a cloud somewhere until I have a chance to download it, is genius.

1. 8.      What publications and websites list movie and TV shows that are in production?

Hollywood Reporter and Daily Variety, mainly the Hollywood Reporter. But these days you can just go to the network websites and see what TV shows are happening. Go through that online, and within a week, all the networks will put up their trailers for those shows. If you just go to IMDB.com, you’ll, see keywords for shows that are already on TV. You can scroll over these key words to determine whether it is a romantic comedy or a thriller and get a general idea of what something might be.

Also TVshowmusic.com is one of my favorite websites. It’s not about shows that are coming out, but it lists all the songs that are in music heavy shows. So they go out, watch an episode for any particular show, like Entourage or 90210, and list all the songs that were used; that can give you an idea, hey does my music fit that genre and those artists. Then you know if you should pitch or not, because if you pitch a country song in a show that normally uses Hip Hop, you can potentially ruin that relationship forever. Because they now know that, not only did you not do your homework, you obviously do not care about what we do. You just want what you want, and that does not come across very well, especially when we do not have a lot of time. It is our butt on the line; we need to be able to trust our resources. Relationships are extremely important.  

1. 9.      Do you have a go-to list of songs? How do writers or artist know you’re looking for a song?

It is kind of interesting, because NO, the answer to that is NO. I don’t know a music supervisor that does a big brief and sends it out—that is a very European thing to do, or an ad agency thing to do. But, for independent supervision, there are only so many of us, and, you know, for me, its just me. But, for other people, they may have more people involved. But, if you reach out and send out a search, no one keeps that to themselves; they send it out, and it goes on and on. Then you start getting stuff from people you don’t know, and that is just not a good way to do business. So we rely on our trusted sources.

It is really about timing and luck, like most things in this industry. It’s just one of those things; you just have to be in the right place at the right time. For me, if I know they need a certain type of artist, I’ll go to the people I know have that type of artist. Or, if I met an artist at a function or something, I’ll keep them in mind as well. For example, I just met a bunch of Canadian artists; I’m working on a Canadian project right now, and most of them fit this project. It’s really all about storing things in your brain to know who to go to and how fast you can get it. Speed is always an element, and I have dealt with artists before that just don’t get it. So you need to be able to trust the person that is sending it to you. Dealing with artists and writers does not always work out, because sometimes they’re on tour, or for a number of other reasons.

10.   There are a lot of writers that write instrumentals, what type of TV shows are most likely to use instrumentals and queues written by different composers rather than a composer that is hired for the show itself?

To be honest, none! Well, I say that, and I’m sure there are like 12 exceptions. We hire a composer solely because we want them to cover the instrumental cues. So to license someone and give them money when you have someone who can write it doesn’t make any sense. Nobody is getting paid what they used to get paid, so it doesn’t really make sense, unless it is a really stand out cue. There are a few exceptions, but money is tight. We try to use our resources the best we can to stay in budget and move efficiently.

11.  How do production companies fit into that scenario are certain shows given to certain production companies to write the music or is that strictly composers?

In my experience, just composers

12.   Can you generalize about what particular attributes of a song makes it useful for a film or TV show?

Vague lyrics are great; I know that sounds ridiculous, but when you have a song that is not particularly male or female, or a song about friends or songs about sort of general topics, it’s easier to place. A more specific song may make it harder to place because that particular scenario may change the meaning of the scene. For example, Jason Muraz is a good example; his songs are more melodic and have a bit more space. It is way harder to put a song with a lot of words behind a scene. I think, unless it is a very specific scene, we are not going to be using a whole lot of Black Metal or Polka; there is a list of genres that we typically do not use. Singer/songwriters, pop, hip hop, more radio friendly music is what we typically use.

13.  What subjects and moods recur in TV episodes and movies more often than others; for example, party scenes, and breakup scenes.  What topic and genre would produce the most placements for a writer?

You know there is always a party scene, a restaurant scene, a montage, actually I have licenses for a few instrumentals for, like, restaurant or library scenes. If you’re lucky, you get the montage, which is like the holy grail for a supervisor because there is no dialog. You get to have that music moment where everything soars, and its epic. It’s kind of the same things you would expect; everything is about friendship or love or heart ache or just everyday things that happen in life. Whatever happens in life is going to happen on TV. The same places you would have music in your life, you’ll have on TV.

14.  What are the differences in sync and master use fees between independent movies and major studio productions?

That is a good question. For publishing and for masters, generally, that will be the same. Generally, a publisher will get more than an independent master covering a huge song. There would probably only be a discrepancy there. If there is a major publisher, but an indie master, obviously, the publisher would get more. If they are both major, generally, people will do a favored nations clause (if you later pay a larger fee, you must pay me that same fee retroactively). So publishing and mastering would make the same fee. And for independent movies and major productions, it obviously just comes down to their budget. I have dealt with several independent films that were made for under $25,000.00, so our music budgets have been incredibly low. But you make it work, and that is the benefit of knowing independent artists. Not that I wouldn’t want to pay people more, but you have an opportunity to at least showcase them and give them a chance to be heard. Studio productions sometimes have bigger budgets, but not always because, unfortunately, music tends to be under valued. People don’t count for music up front unless it is a very heavy music project.

A lot of times you’re not really given a lot of money to make that really amazing. So you do what you have to do to make everyone happy within your budget. Sometimes you pull off miracles; more often than not, you pull off miracles. When artists and managers and publishers and agents are very kind and grant a quote that fits your project, you know they believe in what you do, which is really, really nice when it happens. But some major productions, like say, Iron Man, have a much bigger budget. I have not played with that much money, but I certainly would like to.

15.  Can you describe the process you go through in your role as music supervisor from pre to post production, and does it differ for movies and TV?

It really depends on what point you get hired. Sometimes you get hired at preproduction, like for 500 Days of Summer I did that and was hired when it was still a blinking green light. So I was brought in at that point. We had a whole dance sequence, so we had to go through that and find the appropriate music. On other films, I’ve been hired seven months into post, and given two weeks to do everything. I have never been hired during production; it has always been during preproduction or post production. It just varies by each project. I have often worked with a lot of first time feature directors, and for me, well some make a lot of mistakes. But you learn it by doing it, and they have the most passion, usually, so it is cool working for someone who really cares about what they are doing. Your job is to make everyone happy, and when you do that, it’s an amazing feeling.

16.  How many episodes are generally produced for a TV show?

When do shows go into rerun? It used to be where you would have a full 21, 22 episode run, but I do not know of a lot of shows that still do that. Now, typically, if it is a new show it will get picked up for 6 shows plus the pilot, and if it does well, they’ll pick up the back six. Then it is 13 episodes. That is usually for a half hour. For an hour show, same thing, but probably pick up maybe 13, and if it does well they pick up the back 13 for a full season or back 10 or 12. For cable, it is very different. Their seasons are all over the place. These days, you can bank on 6 and see how well it does after that.

17.  What’s a typical lead time for selecting music for a scene, and how does it differ for movies and TV?

For TV, generally, you’ll have about two weeks to figure out what you’re going to use, clear it, and deliver your episode. Sometimes two weeks to a month depending on what your production schedule is. It varies quite a bit for film because you don’t...well, it depends on when you get hired and if people already have ideas. Generally, when you have a film, the directors are a little more prominent, where as producers are more prevalent in TV. So film usually takes so long because you’re working on someone’s baby, and they come with more ideas. Whereas with TV, it is more about what fits. TV does not have as much time to figure out what needs to be assigned to what show; does that make sense? TV is just much quicker, and I actually rather like the pace of TV and I like that you can hit a wide audience more quickly.

18.  I know that you receive over 1,000 e mails a day. How do you keep track of the music you receive—that is, organize it, prioritize it, and so forth?

Well I think every music supervisor has a really thick brain that can organize music like nobody’s business. I mean, I can forget where I live at night, but I know where I heard a song, no matter how much time has passed. You just have a special sort of...everyone has their own special sort of gift for the things they remember or respond to, and for music supervisors, certainly for myself, music is everything. I know if I am out and someone is talking to me and a song is playing, I do not hear a single word that person is saying, because all I can do is concentrate on the song. Sometimes Ill be driving in my car and hear a random song on the radio that turns out to be the perfect song, and Ill remember that song.

I’m not a blog person or website person for finding music, because it gets exhausting and I already look at a computer for way to long in a day, so I prefer to go to shows or meet artists, go to concerts or music showcases or festivals or just meeting random people. Like I was at a music conference in Nashville once and met this guy sitting in the back of his car. we started talking; he said he used to be in this group and now he was trying to do more composing, and then, like a month later, I put him on as a composer for two of my shows. So now he is doing composing and is songwriter as well. But you know it is just that easy; it can be that simple. So when people are not that desperate or too hungry, because they think it is their one shot to talk to that supervisor, if it is just relaxed and natural because you believe in what you do, you know it can work out.

19.  If you were an artist, songwriter, or publisher, and you could only go to one industry conference to network with movie and TV music supervisors, which one would it be?

Wow, that question can get me in trouble. Actually I should further what I was saying about how I organize my music. Everything goes into iTunes and I relabel everything; then I put who the publisher is, who the master owner is, and a contact number. If it is available, I put in the year. I put in as much information as possible, and I am usually very meticulous about my downloads.

But okay, the conference, well, I wouldn’t say SXSW Film Festival in Austin, Texas because it is a little scattered; its not like you’re going to find certain people in a certain place. I would probably go for something smaller. I kind of think wherever you are, you should kind of just go to one there. CMJ Film Festival in New York, I’ve actually never really been to CMJ, and I know it’s kind of all over the city. So I would focus on something much more centralized.

There are a lot of great conferences in Canada. I also think it is easier to find people, like Canadian Music Week, Pop Montréal; even going to film festivals, you’ll meet supervisors as well. I have never attended ASCAP or BMI conferences. I think it is better when the music is the focus because everyone there is enjoying the music. I think the National Film Festival is great for me. I have met a lot of great artists there. I think you just have to do your homework and see what fits the kind of music that you do. Because, obviously, if the music where you live is one way and you don’t write that kind of music, you don’t want to be associated with that. I want to give a better answer, but it is kind of like, I think you go with what you know and that suits what you do. I go to a lot of music conferences. I’m trying to think of one where I met the most artists. Usually it is either in Canada or Nashville where I meet the most. A&R Worldwide puts on events for people from all over the world, so that is a really good resource.

20.  Are you working on a project now and can you tell us what may be coming up in the future?

I’m working on a show called Apartment 23, and it actually doesn’t start until, I think, in January; it is a half hour comedy. I’m not sure what kind of music they will be using yet because it has not been discussed yet. But it is set in New York City. There are going to be bars and clubs involved. I don’t think the budget is going to be super big because it is a half hour comedy and usually half hour comedies don’t have very big budgets. I think that they’ll probably want one big song every few episodes that is known, but other than that, we’ll be using independent music. I think this is probably the main one I’m working on. I have a few Hallmark films, but those are just case by case, and most are period pieces. That is about it.

21.  I hear you should do your homework before contacting a music supervisor.

Lets look at this example.

 

2011 Traffic Light (TV series) (music consultant - 11 episodes, 2011) (music supervisor - 1

A comedy about how friendships and romances both enhance and complicate our lives, which centers on three longtime friends and their attempts to navigate the demands of their relationships.

How does that indicate what you are looking for? How would we know if there is a composer for the music and what songs and genre you would want for the series?

You really just need to watch the shows. Homework needs to be visual as well as reading. IMDB is a great as a preliminary resource, but then you have to follow up, and it is certainly not the end-all be-all. You can also look for trailers. But sometimes the trailers do not always use the same music as in the movies, so be careful about using trailers as a resource.

22.  Is there an important question that we should have asked but didn’t?

That is an excellent question as well. It is really important to know part of the homework that you have to do. If music is your job, then you’ve got to do your homework. Every supervisor likes to get music a different way, and there is no one way to find out without you contacting that supervisor. I really do get over a thousand of emails a day; that is no exaggeration. And I say that with tears in my eyes. But that is what it takes, and I know that they are all people that have sent me great music in the past. People that I have met at a conference or over the last 12 years.

I consider myself lucky to have that many people coming to me and doing part of my job for me, sending me this incredible music so I don’t have to go out looking for it. But I do prefer digital; I rarely listen to CD’s anymore. Other people want to have a link so they can stream it first and then download; other people only want physical copies. You cannot take it personally if you do not hear back from a supervisor. We are continuously dealing with fires, and it is fast paced work. If it is not pertinent to a deadline, you won’t hear from us. E-mail is usually the best way to reach us. We already know you are probably a songwriter and you want your stuff heard. We don’t care; we just want good songs. Know your background and all the pertinent information, so you do not lose opportunities.

Metadata is so important. If you don’t know how to do it, ask an 8 year old; it is easy. But it is so important for a supervisor. Honestly if something comes up track 1, track 2, it will be deleted. How am I going to know what it is? It needs to be tracked and made as easy as possible for the supervisor. If you get me your music and do it right the first time, then we’re good. Now you’re in my brain because the music is good, and you got it to me the right way, no hassles.

Unfortunately there are people I have met who are almost rude without trying, because their music is everything to them. This is their baby, and they’re nervous about putting it out into the world. Maybe they don’t have any industry contacts, and they end up saying things they probably shouldn’t, things like, “I don’t watch TV or movies,” and I’m like, then why are you talking to me? Or if they don’t know what you work on and they put down a show that you don’t work on; then I really do not want to listen to their music; why should I?

It happens more often then not; you’d be surprised how often it happens. And I think it is just because people are nervous, so just be mindful. You may not watch TV or movies, but I do not need to know that. People announce things they probably shouldn’t. Find out how people want the music delivered, and know what they are working on. Know that people don’t always update stuff on IMDB, so it is not going to be completely accurate. Some people don’t want you to know what they are working on because they don’t want to be contacted. Some people don’t return e-mails, so when you submit music, it is really like sending a letter to Santa.